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Art and Technology

An interview with Ray Pointer: Part Two

In Part One of this series of interviews Ray Pointer, animator, animation historian and author shared his early passion for the work of Fleischer Studios: how it influenced his own path as an animator and fueled the 40+-years of research that led to the publication of his recent book, The Art and Inventions of Max Fleischer.

In Part Two of this series, Mr. Pointer reflects on the marriage of art and technology that defined the old "studio system" of animation behind so many of Fleischer Studios' greatest films and most significant innovations.

Back to Part One

Go to Part Three

Go to Part Four

Jane: How did being an animator yourself inform your research and writing of this book?

Ray: As I said previously, part of the problem with most books on animation and animation history is that they have been written by people who are not artists or Animators. So they don't have the same realization as one would coming from the profession. Having done a share of it has given me the insight because this is an intellectual process in many regards since animation is an art as well as a science. This is central to my book, and was at the core of Max Fleischer's very being. This is found in his declaration that "Mechanics is the art form of the 20th Century." And it was this combination of art and technology that was central to his work.

Jane: So coming from an Animator's perspective is an advantage?

Ray: Yes and no. Merely being an "Animator" may not always be enough since Animators are individuals with their own natural abilities and realizations as well as strengths and weaknesses. Most Animators, especially those in the last generation, have been compartmentalized. They've pretty much worked within their specific area of training. They were not brought up in the old studio system where you started at the bottom and were promoted to the next level according to demonstrated ability. The closest to that are independent Animators who do all of the functions out of necessity. I came out of that through my experimental period which led me to my first professional work. And when I was hired, I was of that last generation who learned every aspect of the business from cel painting to working the cameras.

Max, Koko and Fitz by Dick Huemer

I seemed to gravitate more towards the technical aspects, and I'll admit that I neglected some of my artistic development while I focused on the details of film technology, optical sound recording, and so on which I applied to my personal films as I continued my self-training. All the same, this broad exposure to the entire process I believe has given me the depth of understanding necessary to write a book of this nature. So in order to give the subject its proper coverage, one needs to be able to "see the big picture."

Jane: You mention the "old studio system." Would that include the old Fleischer Studios?

Ray: Oh, yes of course. Most everyone started out as cel painters -- 'Opaquers' as they were called on the East Coast. In fact they used that same term at Jam Handy, which isn't surprising since they were largely influenced by New York animation production methods. There was also a stream of New York Animators from Fleischer and the Terrytoons Studio working there from time to time. But most everyone started out painting cels, inking, and moved up to Inbetweening as positions opened up leading to the level of Animator.

Jane: So this was the path at Fleischer Studios, too?

Ray: Yes. Even in the days before the use of cels, high schoolers were hired as "Inkers" to blacken in the characters on paper. Several of Max's top Animators started out that way.

Jane: Who were some of them?

Ray: Dave Tendlar and Berny Wolf had been Inkers on Krazy Kat before coming to work for Max.

Jane: And did they all do Inking for Max?

Ray: No. According to Berny Wolf, Max hired him for a new Assistant position called "Inbetweener."

Jane: What was that?

Ray: Inbetweeners were assistants to Animators who completed all of the drawings needed in a scene. The Animator might make six or eight main poses and make notes in the margins for where the positions were to fall like halfway, a quarter, or a third, and the Inbetweener would make those positions accordingly. Usually they were positions fitting in evenly, which contributed to the fluid action that Fleischer animation was known for.

The old 'cel animation' process is detailed in a 1938 Popular Science film featuring the work of Fleischer Studios.

Fleischer Studios staff bachelor dinner for Dave Tendlar (seated near the middle with mustache and glasses). Seymour Kneitel is seated right foreground, Izzy Sparber standing in rear third from left, Myron Waldman standing in same row, third from right. Collection: Fleischer Studios

Max talks to a reporter in BETTY BOOP'S RISE TO FAME.

Jane: Was the Inbetween process unique to Fleischer Studios?

Ray: Some sources claim that others approached animation the same way. Winsor McCay called it a "Split System" where he made key drawings and went back and drew the in between positions. But he worked virtually alone on his animation without an assistant other than his teenage neighbor, John Fitzsimmons, who meticulously copied the backgrounds onto each drawing used in GERTIE THE DINOSAUR. Otto Messmer of Felix the Cat fame worked as an Assistant doing Inbetweens on the Charlie Chaplin cartoons. But for the most part the Inbetweening system was not in full use by other animation studios in the silent era. The story has it that it all started at Max's first studio, Inkwell Studios, when Dick Huemer left the Mutt and Jeff series and came to work for Max. Dick re-designed the clown character, named him "Ko-Ko" and had a knack for drawing directly in ink. He had a very attractive thick and thin pen line that Max liked very much. So to get Dick to work more efficiently, he asked Dick to make just the main poses and have an assistant fill in the rest of the positions. This was unheard of in those days since Animators took pride in seeing their work represented on the screen with each drawing made themselves. Art Davis was assigned as Dick Huemer's Assistant, and for all practical purposes was the first official "Inbetweener" in the business. You may recall the name Art Davis from the credits of the Warner Brothers cartoons from the 1940s on as an Animator and Director.

Jane: So it sounds like the position of Inbetweener was another Max Fleischer invention.

Ray: In essence, yes. It was Max's idea. And the Inbetweening method proved to be an efficient form of production, where Animators could produce more work in less time with the same results as they had when they made every drawing. This way, Animators could animate four or five cartoons in the time it would take to do one. And as animation production became more and more industrialized, this was practiced throughout the industry. But by all accounts, it started with Max's studio on the Out of the Inkwell films.

Jane: This sounds like it was something of an Apprenticeship or Training Program for Animators.

Ray: It was. And after some period of time, several Inbetweeners were promoted to Assistant Animators and Head Animators. And in the 1930s, Fleischer animation was largely animated on 'ones,' meaning that one drawing was made for each frame at a time when Disney cartoons were animated largely on twos, or each drawing exposed for two frames. While this cut the work in half, it did not produce the fluidity that graced the Fleischer cartoons of this period. Of course the use of animating on twos was used where smoothness of action may not have been as critical. Max made a generalized statement in the mock interview in BETTY BOOP'S RISE TO FAME where they made between 12,000 to 14,00 drawings in each cartoon.

Jane: Wow, that's a lot. Why so many?

Ray: First of all there are 24 frames per second in film. This comes to 1,440 frames per minute. The average cartoon ran seven minutes, or 10,080 frames. In a few cases some cartoons ran a full 10 minutes, or 14,440 frames. So of course, Max's figure was an average because many factors affect the number of drawings, or "cel count" based on how elaborate the animation is, how long the scenes are, or how many cel levels are used in scenes, which amounts to additional drawings and cels.

Cycles would always be a shortcut to meeting footage requirements. That's where runs and walks help. If there was a five second scene of a walk or run, this would require 120 frames. The action cycle could be used to fill the 120 frames without making that many drawings. They would make anywhere from six to 24 drawings depending upon how fast the run or walk was to be, and repeat them for the total of 120 exposures.

Another form of cycle would be the musical rhythm cycle such as a character playing a musical instrument and bobbing up and down in time to the beat. The early 1930s Mickey Mouse cartoons used this a lot in their musical sequences. But this is not to be confused with the "moving hold." That was something else that Dave suggested to keep the characters alive when standing still. They would bob up and down to avoid being frozen on the screen. These were usually done randomly and not necessarily to the actual beat of the music. But the illusion was that they were moving in time with the musical tempo. That was another use of a cycle short cut.

In other cases where you had several characters working in a scene at different places on the Time Line, additional cel levels would be required, which added to the number of drawings and cel count. While there was the illusion of what in the theatrical days was referred to as "Full Animation," certain short cuts were used, similar to those used in Limited Animation for television. Fleischer Studios did have the mouth movements for dialogue in most of their cartoons on a separate level from the balance of the character. This is particularly the case in many of the Betty Boop cartoons where she sings and turns from one side to another as she sings. This is another example of a cycle. This time the mouth shapes on a top layer could be changed while the balance of the action could be cycled back and forth as needed. Even with the use of certain commercial shortcuts, there were still thousands of drawings necessary. And because of this, animation studios had to employ a large workforce to produce these many drawings within a short period of time.

Max Fleischer's invention, the Rotoscope, enabled animators to achieve fluid motion in early animated films.

Jane: Yes, it does seem like this would have been time consuming work for one person to make the thousands of drawings. How long did it take to make a cartoon this way?

Ray: All indications are six to eight weeks. Sometimes 12 weeks. Some could be done in four weeks if a lot of shortcuts were taken. Again, the Inbetween process was crucial to this assembly line process. And there were a lot of Inbetweeners, Inkers and Opaquers needed to get the scenes ready for the camera quickly. When Winsor McCay made his cartoons, he took two years. This clearly was impractical for commercial purposes. Max discovered this as well when he first approached the President of Pathe with his Rotoscope experiment. When Max modestly remarked it had taken him the better part of a year to complete it, the Pathe Rep asked him to come back with something he could offer once a week or even once a month. But it should be understood that Max worked on his first animated cartoons in his spare time assisted by a skeleton crew that included his brothers Joe and Dave. This he did while working his day job at Popular Science Magazine. Of course, I go into these details in my book.

Jane: So it sounds as if the Inbetweeners, Inkers and Opaquers were crucial to the production of the cartoons.

Ray: Yes. And because of the need for so many thousands of drawings and cels, the labor was divided in order to finish the large volume of work. And once a scene was finished it went to camera immediately. Keep in mind that there were several cartoons in various stages of production at the same time. So a trafficking system was in place to track scenes for each cartoon as they were photographed, the film processed, and sent to edit assembly. This is what Izzy Sparber did before he was promoted to the Story Department. Keeping track of all of the individual scenes was crucial by the mid 30s when Fleischer Studios was producing four series with a new cartoon released to theaters each week.

Jane: That's was a lot. What were they releasing?

Ray: The Betty Boop series was still going along as well as the Screen Songs, Color Classics, and of course their greatest success, Popeye. This amounted to 52 releases a year. But with all of this activity, it eventually came to a head, which changed the course of Fleischer Studios. I go into lengthy detail on this in my book.

Fleischer Studios is on YouTube!

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Ray Pointer

Ray Pointer “rolled off the Assembly Line" at Henry Ford Hospital on July 4, 1952. He attended Special Ability Art classes at The Detroit Institute of Arts, and graduated from Cass Technical High School, earning a Commercial Art degree. He attended Wayne State University and the University of Southern California, Department of Cinema/Television.

A self-taught filmmaker, Ray experimented with animation from 1963 to 1973, with his first professional exposure at The Jam Handy Organization in Detroit. And in 1973, he received the first Student Oscar for the cartoon short, Goldnavel.

Ray served in the U.S. Navy as a Motion Picture Specialist, serving in a junior officer’s position as Producer for Navy Broadcasting in Washington D.C. During this period, he received The Gold Screen Award from the National Association of Government Communicators for the animated television spots: Pride and Professionalism and Shore Patrol.

In the 1990s, Ray was active in the Animation Renaissance on the west coast, as an Assistant Animator and Storyboard Artist for Film Roman, DIC Entertainment, Hanna-Barbera, Universal, Disney Interactive, Fred Wolf Films, MGM, and Nickelodeon, where he advanced to Animation Director. In 1996, Ray became an active member of The Animation Peer Group of The Television Academy of Arts and Sciences. Since 2009, Ray has been an Adjunct Professor in Digital Media at Kendall College of Art and design in Grand Rapids, Michigan. In 2000, Ray began assembling a selection of the early Max Fleischer Out of the Inkwell and Ko-Ko Song Car-tunes films, which are available on DVD from his web site, www.inkwellimagesink.com.

To learn more about Ray Pointer's search for Out of the Inkwell films - check out: